The Dialogue Institute hosted a Zoom conversation with holocaust survivor Dr. Harold Kasimow regarding his most recent book, Love or Perish: A Holocaust Survivor’s Vision for Interfaith Peace. Dr. Kasimow received a bachelor’s from the Jewish Theological Seminary before he came to Temple University, where he worked on a master’s and a PhD in Religious Studies, and has dedicated his life to fostering a community of love and respect through interreligious dialogue. His latest book is a continuation of his work in the field of interreligious dialogue, where; he shares his Holocaust experiences, explains the friendship that developed between his mentor Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel and Civil Rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., compares and contrasts how Rabbis and scholars of Jewish Studies view the Holocaust, and provides a place for interfaith dialogue among four of the largest world religions.
Event Transcript
Andi Laudisio: I want to welcome you to another zoom conversation with the Dialogue Institute community. Today, we are honored to engage in conversation with Professor Harold Kasimow, regarding his most recent book, Love or Perish: A Holocaust Survivor’s Vision for Interfaith Peace. Dr. Kasimow has dedicated his life to fostering a community of love and respect through interreligious dialogue. His latest book is a continuation of his work in the field of interreligious dialogue, where he shares his Holocaust experiences, he explains the friendship that developed between his mentor, Rabbi Abraham Joshua Herschel and civil rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. He also compares and contrasts how rabbis and scholars of Jewish Studies view the Holocaust, and provides a place for interfaith dialogue among four of the world's largest religions. I'm now going to turn it over to Dr. David Krueger who will say a few words about the Dialogue Institute. Thank you.
David Krueger: Welcome, everyone, I'm the Executive Director of the Dialogue Institute. We are delighted to welcome you all to this important conversation. We have almost 100 people who registered for this event, and they span the globe, all the way from California to Cambodia. You can view videos from previous events on our YouTube page and Sayge Martin will share our YouTube page link in the chat. Our next zoom dialogue event is scheduled for March 10, and the title is, “Is dialogue still possible across political divides in the United States?,” and a registration link will also be made available in the chat. If you are new to the Dialogue Institute, I would like to invite you to visit our website to learn more about our various programs, which include; our study of the US Institutes on religious pluralism, in partnership with the US Department of State, our dialogue and innovation programs for high school students around the globe, our historical tours program featuring stories of religious pluralism in Philadelphia and beyond, our programs that foster black Jewish understanding and dialogue, and a fall virtual conference on dialogue, democracy and pluralism and Africa organized by Dr. Effiong Udo from Nigeria. These activities would not be possible without financial support. So, we ask you to please consider making a donation today via our website so we can continue to do this important work. At this point, I'd like to turn it over to Sandi Billingslea or Sandy Mayer from iPub Global Connection to talk a little bit about the experience of supporting Harold as he wrote this book. Sandy, go ahead.
Sandy, we're having some difficulty hearing you. I'm sorry, I think we're gonna have to move on. At this time, we're going to have Sayge share the link to the iPub catalog, Sandy Mayer and Sandi Billingslea worked very closely with Dr. Kasimow on the production and publications of this book. So at this point, we will turn to Rebecca Mays. Rebecca, would you be able to share briefly about the Journal of Ecumenical Studies and Harold's history with writing for the journal?
Rebecca Mays: Thank you, David. As many of you know, the Journal of Ecumenical Studies started in 1964. Len Swidler with his wife Arlene, commenced the journal for the purpose of doing interreligious dialogue, first among Jews and Christians, and then expanded to include all of the major world religions, and some minor ones. At the present moment, this opportunity to dialogue with Harold, presents an opportunity for those of you listening. One way the journal publicizes issues is through our book reviews and his book is an excellent candidate for the journal. I would like to invite any of you, some of you I know and I know you are good book review writers, I would like to invite you to send a review of Harold's book to the JES, which we could publish. And I smile at you, Alan, as a possible candidate.
David Krueger: Thank you so much, Rebecca. At this time, I'll now turn it over to Heidi Isaac, who will tell you a little bit more about Harold Kasimow.
Heidi Isaac: Thank you, Dave. Dr. Harold Kasimow was born in Poland in 1937 and needed to flee when the Nazis and their collaborators began systematically killing Jews in the area following the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. With the aid of a Christian Polish farmer, his family endured 19 months surviving in a hole dug underneath a barn. Of the 1 million Jewish children in Poland in 1939, Dr. Kasimow is only one of 5,000 that survived the Holocaust. After several years in refugee camps, his family immigrated to New York City. He went on to receive a bachelor's degree from the Jewish Theological Seminary, before going to Temple University, where he worked on a Master's and a PhD in Religious Studies. He has dedicated his life to fostering a community of love and respect through interreligious dialogue and since the 1970s, he has lived in Iowa, where he also helped establish Grinnell College's Department of Religious Studies. His latest book, Love or Perish: a Holocaust Survivor’s Vision for Interfaith Peace, is a continuation of his work in interreligious dialogue. He is a long time friend of the Dialogue Institute’s founder, Len Swidler, and we are pleased that he is joining us today for this very special zoom event. I now turn it over to Dr. Kasimow.
Dr. Kasimow: First, I'd like to thank David for arranging this meeting, the Zoom meeting, and thank you all for being here. This book could not have been written without my encounter with many people, from different faith traditions. They are too innumerable to mention. Many teachers, friends, students, I'm happy to see here today, helped to heal my life .I'm happy to see some of the people I know. Zev Garber was maybe the first person I met when I came to the United States in 1949. Certainly, I want to thank all the people who read my manuscript and real blurbs, and all who were kind enough to write blurbs for my book, and Alan Race, who wrote the foreword. Later I will speak about Len Swindler. At this point, I do want to thank some of the people for iPub. First, I want to thank Susan Noon, who devoted a great deal of time to working on my manuscript. I especially want to thank Aron Hirt-Manheimer, who helped me write the introduction to the first chapter, which was the most difficult thing for me to write, because that's where I told my story, as a Holocaust survivor. His parents are Holocaust survivors, he's a professional journalist, he was born in a DP camp in Germany, that was just 100 miles away from the DP camp where I was from 1946 to 1949, till I came to the United States. So, he was very helpful in helping me shape the questions for me to write that introduction to my own early life.
I like to thank Sandi, Len’s sister, who devoted many hours to speaking with me on the phone, and helping me to turn this into a book. And I certainly, most of all, want to thank Sandy Mayer, who devoted many hours in the past two years to make this book into a reality. So what I want to do is, I want to take five minutes just to read the statement that I wrote out about why I wrote this book.
So, you all know that I'm a Holocaust survivor, I'm a teacher. I've devoted most of my academic life to reading and writing about interfaith dialogue. For 60 years, I read very little about the Holocaust, although I live with it every day of my life. In more recent years, however, with the rise of serious anti-semitism, Islamophobia, and Holocaust denial, I could no longer remain silent. So for about 10 years now, I have been giving talks on my Holocaust experience to many schools, in even different countries, like Germany, and especially Poland and Lithuania. And I also began to devote my time to, to reading more about the Holocaust. But, I wasn't planning to write anything about the Holocaust, because I'm not a Holocaust scholar. My work has always been interfaith relations. About two years ago, my dear friend Professor Len Swindler wrote to tell me that of the, I don't know, 10s of 1000s of students that he had, he only remembered me as a Holocaust survivor, and that it was time that I should write something more about my own experience. So I decided I would definitely do it because I knew that there are so many people who find it difficult to believe in the genocide of European Jews. I know that 1 in 10 young Americans don't even believe that the Holocaust ever happened. So I want people to know what happened to me, and that my childhood was taken away.
I hope that at least a few people who will want to read my book will want to learn more about the Holocaust and the indescribable evil that occurred when the Nazis controlled Europe. So my hope is that people will then perhaps want to read other books, like Wiesel’s books, Night, Viktor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning, and Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz. And there are now so many other books that are very important to read, I think, to understand the evil that occurred during the Holocaust.
I just want to finish by saying, people sometimes ask me, is there any specific action or work that you think needs to be done? And I really, it's difficult for me to say what specific actual work people should do. Everyone has to find their own way to fight hatred. Someone may want to speak to their families and friends, teachers may want to devote more time to teaching about racism and the Holocaust, some interfaith activist may want to march, but all of us should carefully examine how our hearts desire to act. And to act. Whatever we do, we must act in a way that will bring joy to other human beings. And I just want to end by reading one very brief statement of my view of other religions. I maybe originally written it, perhaps for the first time in 1999 in a book that I had on St. Pope John Paul II and interreligious dialogue.
The statement reads:
“I am a Jewish pluralist. As such, I'm committed to the Jewish path, not because of the superior, but because it is my path. I viewed the concept of The Chosen as God choosing the Jews to follow the path of the Torah and at the same time, choosing the Hindus to follow the Vedas, the Buddhists to follow the Dharma, the Muslims to follow the Quran, and for Christians to follow Jesus of Nazareth.”
I hope I didn't surpass my 10 minutes.
David Krueger: Thank you, Harold. Before we jump into our first question with Heidi, I'm wondering if we could have a spokesperson from iPub Global Connection, perhaps Elyse, just to make a brief remark about the publisher.
Elyse Draper: Thank you so much, David. We just wanted to make sure that everybody knows that we're honored, Sandi and I, to be here with Harold today. We want to make sure that everybody gets an opportunity to take a look at his book and to please leave a review. Was there anything else to add Sandi?
Sandi Billingslea: Yes. We had the privilege, and honor, of working with Harold to put together this very important work. When we started out with this, it was just an idea of putting a regular book together, but there's nothing regular about Harold. I want to leave with you a thought, that has always run through my head whenever I had the opportunity to speak with Harold, which was “What would I be today if I had had to live nine months, and in many days, under the ground, never, ever coming above ground? What would I be today?” I surely doubt that I would be the person that Harold has clearly become. And when you read this book, you’ll see the heart of a man who watched people die as a baby, five years old, six, Harold would have to correct me where I'm wrong. Who lived the impossible! A value statement for iPub is, it's possible. We believe that when you focus on what you need to do and choose to do that you can. Harold, and his book is proof that it's possible. And Harold, I want to thank you. It's been an honor.
Dr. Kasimow: And I want to thank Sandi, who made this book into reality. I don't really know how many hours she spent, I said this, in the last two years. But, I was actually 19 months and five days, my mother counted it, in living in that hole. Mostly, as I figure out the time, we were occupied in July 2, 1941. We hid in many different places, but that was before my fourth birthday. And it was probably between the ages of 5 and 7 that I lived in that group, and for that period of time.
David Krueger: I think that leads us into our first question, which will be offered by Heidi Isaac.
Heidi Isaac: Thank you. All who know you, know that you spent most of your life promoting interfaith dialogue, and that your latest book is a continuation of that. At the end of Love or Perish, you describe yourself as being, and I quote, “deeply can be committed to promoting interfaith dialogue as a path to peace,” end quote. My question is this: When did you first start on this path?
Dr. Kasimow: Thank you. So I'm really thrilled to see many former students and friends here. Some of them at this point, know my story, but I think I can maybe tell them something for this question that they don't even know. When I came to the United States, in 1949, I went to Yeshiva Salanter, in the Bronx, where I met Zev Garber. It's a Musiri yeshiva, and maybe I’ll have a chance to say something about the Musiri Movement in Lithuania later. And then, I went to the High School of Yeshiva University. So I really didn't begin my education until I was about 12 years old.
When I was about 17, I spent the first 2 years mostly studying Talmud at Yeshiva University. This was modern Orthodox. So I also started to be able to read the classics. I still remember reading The Way of All Flesh, by Samuel Butler. It's not well known, but has a lot of religious elements in it and I began to think about other religious traditions. And no one said to me, Judaism is the only true religion, but I began to wonder, how was that, you know, the kind of concept of God that I had, how could God give the truth to one people and not to the rest of the world? Later, something else students may not know, is that no one ever said to me that I shouldn't be, I shouldn't be reading about Jesus. So I began to read everything that I can get my hands on, on Jesus.
I remember especially reading The Nazarene by Sholem Asch, which is a really wonderful book. I tried to find time to read it again, but I haven't, yet. My first lecture, that I ever gave, which isn't written anywhere, was actually, I guess a student at Hillel at the seminary at the time, must have been about when I was just starting at 19, I gave was a Jewish view of Jesus. I had Joseph Klausner who wrote a worthwhile book on Jesus and Heinrich Gretsch who wrote a 12 volume history of the Jews at the time. So I remember I used them as some of my major sources to present my paper on a Jewish perspective on Jesus. I won't go into it. I still remember what they said pretty much, but it would take too long for me to do that. So that was the very beginning and then, of course, I studied with Heschel, that I’ll talk about later, and then Temple University, where I had incredible professors in World Religions.
That began my path and I, you know, traveled too, since that time. I was interested in mysticism early on, when I first began studying at Temple and when I began teaching at Grinnell College in 1972, but within a few years, I began to do all my work in interfaith dialogue.
David Krueger: Thank you, Harold. We'll take our second question from Andi Laudisio.
Andi Laudisio: Thank you, Dave. Harold, I'm wondering if you can describe how someone can foster human connection with others, when they come to the conversation with hate or distrust.
Dr. Kasimow: That's pretty difficult I think. So I want to tell, maybe I can tell a story here, that I think is related to that question.
Dr. Kasimow: I hope I can remember the story exactly.
It tells the story of a very prominent Hasidic Rabbi, with whom she had a conversation, much later when he was in his 80s, and he told the story of how he used to, every Saturday, take a walk with his tall, handsome son-in-law, and he had a habit of greeting everybody that he met by name. To say, “Good morning,” and he would even use their titles. And on the outskirts of town, he met a farmer whose name was Herr Mueller, and he would always, every time he passed, he would say, “Guten morgen, Herr Mueller,” and Herr Mueller said, “Guten morgen, Herr Binner.” And then, the Nazis took over, Herr Mueller donned a Nazi uniform, left the fields, and the rabbi ended up, I think, with his family in Treblinka. Everybody of his entire family was murdered and then he went to Auschwitz. And he was standing in line, in Auschwitz, and he was hearing a voice, “Right. Left. Left. Left.” And, he was really very ill at the time, but somehow he was able to recognize the voice.
When the person came to him, he raised face and said, “Guten Morgen, Herr Mueller,” and Herr Mueller said, “Herr Binner! What are you doing here?” A faint smile was on the face of the rabbi. The next day, the baton moved to the right, to life, and the next day, the rabbi was sent to a camp, where he could survive, and he survived. So he told the story to say, you know, you should always greet every person that you encounter. That “good morning” to Herr Mueller saved his life.
I'm also thinking of, before I answer the question, I'm also thinking of Israel Salanter, who founded this ethical self-perfection movement in Judaism called the Musar Movement in Lithuania, it's a Lithuanian movement. He said, what a wonder, that Rabbi Judah Law of Prague, from the great rabbis of the 16th/17th century, was able to create a golem, you know. A kind of a Superman out of clay. But isn't it even a greater wonder that a human being, of flesh and blood, can be turned into a mensch?
David Krueger: We'll go to a question from Heidi Isaac again.
Heidi Isaac: Thank you. We recently celebrated Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, whom you mentioned a couple of times in your book. I was wondering if you could speak more about his relationship with your mentor, Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel and the relationship between the Jewish community and the Black community during the Civil Rights Movement?
Dr. Kasimow: Oh, yes. So, that's really a question that, you know, entire talks should be devoted to that question, especially now. Heschel met Dr. Martin Luther King in January 1963, at a conference in Chicago on religion and race. And, they each gave a talk, and I've read all the talks from that conference, they were published, and you know, I could switch their names, at least, in my perspective, changed the names and the talks had such a great affinity, and it's so surprising. Here, you have Heschel, a Hasidic Jew from Eastern Europe, and a Baptist minister, and yet the vision had such great affinity. And I think what the great affinity is that, Martin Luther King was very much taken with the Hebrew prophets, in Exodus.
Heschel lived in Germany from maybe 27 till he was kicked out in 1938 by the Gestapo. He saw that the Nazis wanted to actually take the Hebrew Bible out of sacred texts. And here was a Baptist minister, who was speaking of the Hebrew Bible, perhaps even more than of Jesus. So they developed a very close relationship, from that very moment. Then Martin Luther King asked Heschel to come march with him from Selma to Montgomery.
Heschel, we should know, the first part of his life, until 1960 or so, was spending all his life in his study. In Judaism, study is the path to God. It's not the way to Paradise, study itself is paradise. After he wrote The Prophets in 1962, and meeting Martin Luther King, he began to feel that he has to go out, to leave his office, and became very active in supporting the civil rights movement. So he was right in the front row during that march.
Martin Luther King invited him. It was a very difficult time. It was very dangerous for him to do that. He wasn't in the greatest health at that point, but he felt that he had to go. And then later, I want you to know, like 10 days before the murder of Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King went to, I think it was The Crossing Gears Hotel in 68, there was a celebration of Heschel 60th birthday, and all the rabbis stood up and sang “We shall overcome” in Hebrew. And Martin Luther King was the person to give the talk, the major talk. He was supposed to have the Passover Seder, the Martin Luther King family with Heschel, this was 10 days before he was murdered. Coretta King actually asked Heschel to give the eulogy for Martin Luther King. Also, I want to add, I think Heschel had a major part, just as King was influencing Heschel to become more involved in the Civil Rights Movement, in influencing King to become involved and speak out against the war in Vietnam.
Maybe I should just stop here and I can answer some further questions on this issue, if they come up, but a great deal has been written about that. At that point in time, it seems that many of the leaders in the Civil Rights Movement were following Martin Luther King, they carried the book of the prophets in their back pocket. I don't know, there must have been a small edition of it because it's a pretty big book. It's this book, that he wrote of the prophets in 1962, was actually a reworking of his dissertation that he wrote in Germany, at the University of Berlin, in 1933.
David Krueger: Harold, thank you. I'll have the privilege of asking the next question related to Heschel, once again. You lift up a quote from Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel numerous times in Love or Perish. You mentioned him in several places, but one of the quotes you referenced that really stood out to me, and to a number of us who've been reading this book, and talking about it collectively, the quote is “for the Holocaust did not take place suddenly.” I know you also elaborate a number of different theories on whether the Holocaust was a unique, special event that's never happened before, never will happen again, that kind of thing, or if it's something that's part of a larger kind of human trend in human history. You outline different Jewish perspectives and thoughts on that. But, I'm curious what you think Heschel meant by that phrase, “the Holocaust did not take place suddenly,” and if you could maybe make some connections to the relevance of that insight for us today, in a world where it may be difficult to discern the steps that may move towards such a scenario. If you could just elaborate on what you think that quote means to you.
Dr. Kasimow: I know that there are many people in the audience who could probably give more meaningful responses to this than I can, but I would say we have to keep in mind 2000 years of Jewish-Christian history and how Jews were perceived and downgraded by Christians. It wasn't always easy. There are times when, especially times until the Crusades, when things were somewhat more possible for Jews to live their lives. I think that with the beginning of the Crusades you have some of the greatest tragedies beginning to happen and that the Jews were only seen as candidates for conversion, and sometimes they were forced to attend churches, to listen.
So we know the idea of supersessionism and that would take, of course, many, many books to talk about it. The major change that occurred was, we know about Jews just living, you know, there wasn't the idea of, I would say, to get rid of the Jews, but they were assigned. They were totally replaced by, you know, Christians and Christianity now became the new Israel, and the only hope for Jews was to convert to Christianity.
Let me see. So, that's just the start. Now Heschel began to experience later in the late 19th century, 20th century, the beginning of racism. We already have the idea that Jews are allied with the devil, Jews were responsible for all the diseases, the ideas in Germany that began that the Jews were responsible for the Germans losing the first world war. Get rid of the Jews, and everything will be okay. So the Jews are always an easy scapegoat.
It was really difficult. Germany was the one place where no one would have expected the Holocaust. The Jews felt extremely German and they never believed that, you know, even when Hitler came to power, they still felt that things would change, and they didn't leave right away. But, you know, this radical transformation from religious bigotry to racism, and to the fact that Jews were subhuman, and that they were the ones responsible for what's happened to Germany, I think is part of that answer to that quote. And Heschel experienced that and he witnessed what was going on. He witnessed the burning of books, you know, and he knew. Once you begin to burn books, the next step could be you could start burning people.
David Krueger: We had a question that came through the chat before I get to Heidi's other questions. The question was from, I believe it was Alan Race, I think you asked the question about the nature of dialogue. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're getting at.
Dr. Kasimow: Nature dialogue?
David Krueger: Alan Race, I'm just asking if he can unmute and pose his question.
Alan Race: There we go. Is that fine? Good. Yes. Well, first of all…
Dr. Kasimow: I was going to call on you, but you beat me to it. I’m reading your book right now, My Journey as a Religious Pluralist.
Alan Race: That's another conference event, so we can have that too [haha]. But here we are, we want to address some of the things that you put before us in your book. I have just another general sort of question about the nature of dialogue and how you see that. You know, there's a lot of published words about the nature of dialogue, and for many people it seems straightforward, for others, quite elusive. Len Swidler will be on the screen somewhere, and he's spent most of his life trying to unpack that for people. But you call yourself a religious pluralist, from a Jewish point of view, and I wonder if you would say something like this: when it comes to the truth of my religion, is it the case now that I should be saying, you know, the dialogue between the religions is actually all we have? Now? Put it another way, we should all be saying, I cannot be who I am outside of that dialogical relationship. So, it's not possible to be self-sufficient within one's own religion anymore. Dialogue’s not an optional extra. Should we be saying that a bit louder?
Dr. Kasimow: It's a great question, Alan. I learned a great deal of dialogue from you. You've been very influential. Been using your book, you can remind me the name, Christianity and Religious Pluralism?
Alan Race: Yeah.
Dr. Kasimow: I want to say something about that, what I learned from that. I'm not sure that I would just say “yes” to what you said though. So what did I learn from you, that was very helpful to me? I learned about the three categories. I was always interested, you know, I said from the very beginning, how to view other religious traditions, from my perspective. And you, in your classic work, in 1983, gave us three ways of thinking about, three models for Christian to think about other religions.
One way is the exclusivist way, which says, only Christians can attain salvation. There is no other way. So yes, you are my friend. The exclusivist says, “You're my friend, I care for you, I'm concerned about you, but there's nothing you can do. Unless you convert you're not going to attain salvation.” Then you presented us with the inclusivist view, which is very complicated. Maybe my presentation is not exactly right. I don't remember your books. It's been a while since I read that book. But it's [the inclusivist view] much more open to the possibility. Whether you're a Jew, or a Muslim, or Hindu or a Buddhist, you will be saved by the grace of Christ, I'll just make it very brief, in the inclusivist view. In this view, my religion still has an advantage, but if you remain committed to your tradition, and you're faithful to your tradition, you can attain salvation. Then there's the pluralist view, which I presented, to say that we can't really say, you know. You have worked on, and Paul Knitter has done wonderful work on the pluralist view. We can't say that one religion is superior to another, we can only say, this is my tradition, this is the tradition that I follow.
But with regard to your main question, I'm saying this; I have devoted many years to speaking to you, and to many other people, many Jesuit priests, many Buddhist priests, about this issue. I've been very influenced. It started with Hinduism, but then it turned to Buddhism, and it's helped me, I think it deepened my understanding of the Jewish tradition. But I think, that if one goes in deeply enough, and this is where I guess I'm a little bit different than many pluralists, like Hick and others, if you're deep enough into your own tradition, you can become a real Mensch without studying other religious traditions, because all the traditions that I have studied have the golden rule, and have a path, give you a meaningful life, and make your life meaningful. I think it can be very helpful. It's very helpful in my life [hahaha]. I've spent and worked three years in Japan, and, you know, Buddhism has really enriched my life, but I still believe that one can do it through one's own tradition, if one digs deep enough into it.
Alan Race: Okay.
David Krueger: Andi, I believe you have a question?
Andi Laudisio: Yes, we have a question from Parker in the chat, who said, “You mentioned in the beginning about the Holocaust denial that's happening lately. How do you think young Jews work against these narratives in a constructive way, especially in the academic field?
Dr. Kasimow: I’m sorry, how they work? How they?
Andi Laudisio: Yeah, so how can younger Jews work against these kinds of narratives, specifically in the academic field?
Dr. Kasimow: If I understand your question, first of all, education has been very important to me and I think there are many opportunities now for young people to study their own tradition, whatever that is, in a deep way.
Dr. Kasimow: I haven't spoken about the great diversity, you know, we know great diversity among religions, but there's great diversity within every religious traditions. But even if we're Orthodox Jews, or Muslims, who believe that every word and our sacred text is the word of God. Heschel of course believed that sacred texts are more of a partnership between the human and the divine, and that was problematic for many Orthodox Jews, but even if we believe that every word is actually the word of God, we still have a brain and we have to interpret our text.
So, the most important work in Judaism, I'd say, is Midrash, is interpretation. So we constantly have to interpret our text that's consistent with the best, in our tradition, which teaches love for God and love for human beings. You can't say, I love God, but I don't love human beings. Loving human beings is loving God. And I don't know whether I'm actually responding directly to your question, I hope so, in some ways, so they have to, they first have to master you know, learn their own tradition, as much as that is possible. And then, as I said, there are different paths that young people can take. The one thing they can't do, they must be open. They must be able to see the monstrosity of inequality, and the most important thing is the idea of indifference.
We can’t be indifferent when we see someone harming another human being, because from Herschel's perspective, when we cause pain to another human being, especially for religious people, if we cause pain to another human being, we're also causing pain to God. God is affected by everything we do, that we're in a partnership with God, and that God needs our help to perfect the world. I don't know if that gives you some help to that question.
David Krueger: Please do continue to leave your questions and comments in the chat. I'm just curious, Harold, about your thoughts on young people, and the younger generation today, as far as the Holocaust, practical thoughts on how, you know, we can continue to educate, to bring young people into the conversation. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Dr. Kasimow: So you know that Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel was a major influence in my life, and he had a very interesting interview with Kyle Stern in 1972, just a few weeks before he died, and Kyle Stern asked him if he had a message for young people. And he told young people that no matter how difficult the situation is, no matter how much suffering there is in the world, the one thing we can't do is give up hope.
We always have to do what we can to work on ourselves [haha]. To make a life a work of art and do what we can even if it’s to say good morning to the person next to you. Every moment of our life could make a difference in the life of other human beings. Every action that we do, affects human beings. And I was a young person once, and I know how many of my teachers and my students, I was still fairly young when I began to teach how, you know, seeing love and compassion that human beings have, every little action can make a difference in a person's life. And as a Holocaust survivor, I needed a great deal of healing and I was very fortunate that I've met many people in my life, and have many friends, who have helped me. And the process continues [haha].
David Krueger: We’re drawing quickly to our time to close, but just to note that Harold's book is really far reaching and covers a number of different topics of engaging in thoughts about critical thinking about the Holocaust, engaging across religious difference, engaging multiple different religious traditions. So there are a lot of angles, to go with that book, and I would suspect it could be a useful text, even in a college classroom, for stimulating conversation, and maybe a companion text for a world religions’ class, in some type of way. I'm just curious if there are some Temple University students here, maybe other college students, are there any questions from students that are here, gathered today?
Unknown Speaker: I do have a question.
David Krueger: Yes, please. Naomi?
Unknown Speaker: She had to step out, I'm her brother. I was interested. She was telling me about the the talk and I was really interested coming on.
Well, first off, I want to say thank you, sir, for coming on today. I'm happy to speak to you. A question that I was interested about is, you know, when we talked about the rise in antisemitism, I’ve always kind of been interested to know how would you advise, especially for us today, like approaching it, because I thought about how the problem with antisemitism, it just seems that it's so prevailing among multiple groups, whether it's with white supremacist, or, like radical extremists that might claim to represent Islam, or when it comes to, say like people like in the far right, or far left groups. And I feel you figure there's kind of seems to be a stigma where people who, you know, they kind of tie support to Israel, either, whether you're for or against this, and I kind of feel as if it kind of like, leads to a lot of gray areas and why I would ask your opinion on this.
Dr. Kasimow: So as I said, I'm very aware of racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia. As I said, it is difficult for me to say what specific action or work you could take, different people are in different situations, and can do different things, but the one thing we can't do, if we have the opportunity not to be silent, then we shouldn't be silent. That is really the great danger. So actually, when you when you think of a few of the major Holocaust survivors, and what they wrote, the word that stands out for me from people like Heschel, Elie Wiesel, the one word that really stands out for me is, for them, the greatest sin is indifference. If there's anything at all that we could do is not to be indifferent. I'm thinking about the prophet Amos, because both both Heschel and Martin Luther King quoted the prophet Amos in their talk in January 1963, [he said] to have concern for the poor, the widow, the orphan and so on, and whenever the opportunity occurs to us, to be of some consolation to someone, we must try to do whatever we can.
Unknown Speaker: No, I understand. The only reason why I was saying this is because I mean, I feel that some of the issues, especially when, you know, with 2020, with the protests that were happening in response to like racism and police brutality or so, it just kind of felt like it just started to be noticed, especially among these groups, antisemitism amongst their midst. It was unfortunate whether like, even among like, say, the Woman's March that was in 2017, there were some strains there, or just as far as like, even among segments in the Black Lives Matter Movement, where it kind of just runs counterintuitive, you know, to like, the main message, where it's like, you know, quality and really standing up against bigotry and hate or so, that it kind of feels as if now it just seems more political because people say support for Israel. I think to myself that this just now becomes a one-side issue, its just kind of one dimensional thinking from people, or just acting in bad faith.
Dr. Kasimow: Yes, yes. So I hear your statement. Is there a question?
Unknown Speaker: Yes, I always kind of wonder, what would you say, for say someone like me, I might think that we should have more of a national conversation on this, a more honest conversation the same way we should be doing about race or, you know, police brutality, especially the whole topic on qualified immunity.
Dr. Kasimow: Yes, although this is not my special area, there are numerous conversations going on, within Israel itself, between rabbis and imams, hundreds of organizations that you don't hear about those. You don't hear about the rabbis for human rights. Are you aware of them, for example, who are doing everything that they can to help bring about peace? And the fact is, in spite of everything, you know, sometimes there's a down in history, and we're at a real down right now, but they continue working, and they never give up. A very good example is, we just witnessed this horrible tragedy, and I was very fortunate to receive a tape from one of my students, where the priest, and the imam, and the rabbi, and how they all came together to support each other. We have to make this better known to the world.
Unknown Speaker: No, I understood. I figured also starts with just, you know, acknowledging like problems or biases to be confronted.
David Krueger: Thank you. Thank you, Harold, we’re where we need to wrap things up now, but we're really grateful that you've opened up some doors for additional conversations, and you've given us a reason to gather an incredibly diverse group of people, geographically diverse in particular, from across the globe, to engage in this conversation. We are grateful that you're calling us, again, to see ourselves as a beloved community, and being on the lookout, I think you said along the lines of, being aware, being awoken to the suffering of others around us and not ignoring it.
We thank you all for being, as Len Swidler often uses the term “Mensch,” to talk about somebody who's a true human, who kind of points us in that ethical direction of acting humanely and justly towards one another. So I thank you all. This will soon be posted to our YouTube page and you can enjoy it on your own time. But we do have one last question from Reverend Tyler, I wonder if you would be willing to unmute yourself and pose a final question?
Rev. Mark Tyler: Oh, thanks, David. I was actually trying to give you the thumbs up, but I hit the wrong thing. Let me just say that I so appreciated this conversation and thank you, Harold, for what you said. I am in Atlanta, for a conference today, and I'm sitting at the King Center, listening to this conversation near where he's buried. I just want to just tell you, it just really just gave me chills to hear you talk about Rabbi Heschel and this incredible story. So I just appreciate everything that you've done, and thank you. I'm just proud to be a part of the board for the Interfaith Dialogue Institute, and so, thank you David as well.
Dr. Kasimow: I just want to mention to you what a time it was, between the Jewish community and the African American community, during the 60s, and that Heschel was still greatly admired by so many people, and that Cornell West, one of the best known intellectuals in America, speaks of Heschel as “a soulmate, part of my heart, mind, and soul and witness.” So we have a lot of work to do. Thank you. And I'd like to thank David, and Len, and Sandi, especially, because without Len and Sandi this book would have never happened.
David Krueger: Well, thank you so much, Harold and we truly believe that the stories that you're telling, and the kind of pathway you're guiding us on will plant seeds among all of us, from wherever we are in the globe. So, thank you again, Harold and thank you all for attending. We're very grateful for your participation and we look forward to you joining us again.
Sandi Billingslea: David, can I say one thing?
David Krueger: Sure. Go ahead, Sandi.
Sandi Billingslea: This book is an important piece for everyone watching this, but it's not just you, each of you. It's important that you don't keep it a secret. Please pass on the word, to your friends, to your scholars, to anyone who can take even a piece of what Harold says, because together, all of us who have just heard Harold speak, can make a change in the world, because it's possible. But it's only possible if we share the tools that Harold has brought. So, I asked you to help us have a better world, by passing on the word to the book that he just presented, and we thank you for your support of him.
David Krueger: Thank you so much. Have a good day everyone.
