Welcome to a special podcast series from the Dialogue Institute/Journal of Ecumenical Studies. The Journal of Ecumenical Studies or (J.E.S.) was founded by Temple University professors Arlene and Leonard Swidler in 1964 as the first peer-reviewed academic journal in the field of ecumenical and interreligious dialogue. In 1978, Professor Swidler hosted the first of a series of conferences which brought together leading scholars from each of the Abrahamic faiths in regions where interreligious understanding was crucial to promoting stability and peace. In 2008, these and other efforts gave birth to the Dialogue Institute, which applies the cutting-edge research of the journal to grassroots efforts to facilitate dialogue and understanding across religious differences.
The DI-JES is based at Temple University in Philadelphia. This series of interviews features participants from our Study of the U.S. Institutes, or SUSI, Program on Religious Pluralism and Freedom, which was funded by the U.S. Department of State. From 2017 to 2019, the Dialogue Institute hosted three cohorts of scholars from dozens of countries and you’ll get to meet several of them in this podcast series.
Introducing Dr. Irine Kurdadze
This first interview features Professor Dr. Irine Kurdadze, who is the director of the International Law Institute at Tblisi State University in the country of Georgia, a country at the crossroads of Asia and eastern Europe. She is a professor of International Law whose research and teaching focuses on academic and specific practical student-oriented activities. In addition, she has served as a Member of the Georgian Parliament and was a Deputy Chair for the Foreign Relations Committee, joining a member of the Parliamentary Delegation to the Council of Europe. Her passion as well as her intellectual integrity and acumen correlate international law with domestic law according to rigorous global standards.
My name is Dave Krueger and I’m the executive director for the Dialogue Institute. For this episode, I’m joined by Rebecca Mays, our director of education. Rebecca and I had the privilege of meeting Dr. Kurdadze in the summer of 2017. In this interview, Irine discusses how the SUSI Scholar program affected her and served as a catalyst for a new university course that teaches international standards of ethics and religious minority rights. She sees the course as vital to the health of diverse societies.
Rebecca and I spoke with Professor Kurdadze while she was in her office in Tiblisi, and in the background, you will hear the lively street sounds of her city. Without further delay, we turn to our conversation with Irine Kurdadze.
Interview Transcript
Rebecca Mays: As someone who can blend one's own personal character with one's own professional responsibilities, I’m curious if there were one or two formative experiences in your life that would, one, account for your ability to blend integrity and professionalism and, two, explain why you chose this work.
Georgia is located at the crossroads of Eastern Europe and Asia.
Irine Kurdadze: Thank you, first of all, for giving me this opportunity to join this wonderful project. You know, why I started to work on minority issues is related to the experience I gained as both an international lawyer and as a person involved in the public sector. I wanted to combine my theoretical knowledge of international public law and the practical challenges faced within the 17 public offices in the Ministry of Education. In the Ministry of Education, one of my job responsibilities was to support the integration of ethnic, religious, and linguistic minorities into Georgian society. And as you know, Georgia’s multinational, multi-religious states mean that ethnic and religious groups are living in the common space of this small country. One challenge that I saw was that the settlement of minority issues had been challenged by the giant system of the state institutions. In addition, the dominant population lacked knowledge of minority issues. To my thinking, one solution to the problem was to provide as much possible information about all the groups living here in our country. By increasing the level of knowledge and thus the level of tolerance, Georgia’s Parliament was able to adopt a couple of national strategies to help the civic integration of religious and ethnic minorities. These strategies were intended to raise awareness about the rights of minorities with an aim to eliminate all forms of discrimination and to promote the engagement of minorities in the social life of our country. I truly believe this goal can be reached and reaching it is why I entered this work. Through increased knowledge of the relevant fields as well as analyzing international standards and domestic jurisprudence, I can both elaborate the syllabi I teach and empower professionals in public service. I want to help students and professionals with the knowledge that will help them to cope with existing challenges that we unfortunately still have.
Rebecca Mays: Thank you, Irine. Your university and country should be glad you made these choices.
David Krueger: We had the privilege of spending the summer with you in 2017 when you were a participant in the SUSI scholar program here in Philadelphia. Could you share a little bit about how that summer experience impacted you?
Irine Kurdadze: First, thanks to the embassy of the United States here in Georgia and to the State Department, I was privileged to participate in the SUSI exchange program in 2017. This was not my first experience of traveling to the United States being a public servant. I have been several times and I have been privileged to participate in different high level meetings or study visits. These visits, undoubtedly, were an important and valuable experience for me on a personal level as well as on an institutional level. I always try to follow the current political or social processes in the United States with great interest. As a consequence, I had a feeling that I would understand well the important roots of the United States public life.
Despite such diverse experiences of other trips to the U.S., participating in the SUSI program gave me a different perspective on both the individual and academic social levels. I knew the program would be useful for my current career development, but, in reality, the program content and design exceeded all my expectations.
It is not surprising given that the bulk of the program itself is very multi-disciplinary and takes place in a very historical, multicultural city of Philadelphia. It's a great example of how many different cultures and religious communities as well as immigrant newcomers could coexist in one place, united by the American spirit of seeking equal opportunities. To my thinking, the goodness of this program represents a unique opportunity to experience a special type of knowledge acquisition that pushes beyond the capabilities represented in scientific papers. The SUSI program was designed in a way that allowed us to create our own impressions and generate our own conclusions about the laws and policies of the United States regarding religious and cultural diversity.
Second, meeting with local religious communities made an incredible impression on me. No matter which group we met, the people were ready, not only to present the best experience possible, but were also happy to meet us as representatives of foreign countries, often a country about which in some cases, they did not have much information. They were ready to share experiences about challenges which they sometimes face and discuss their own vision of solutions.
Third, no less valuable for me was the interaction with the SUSI Scholar program participants themselves. My fellow cohort members taught me so much about what is going on in other countries. I was able to learn so much from people with different visions and attitudes.
Also I would like to focus on the role of the host institution and its capacity. I want to thank the Dialogue Institute and its whole staff. All of you were supportive, ready to provide any assistance to the needs of the participants. I am really happy to say that I gained friends and colleagues from the Dialogue Institute in addition to the program experience. In fact, they and the program inspired me to handle different kinds of activities here in my country at my university.
David Krueger: Irine, could you share some about the work you have been doing at your university in Tbilisi and also what you will be doing with the mini grant you recently received from the State Department?
Irine Kurdadze: For one week in the spring of 2018, I offered to my students a course focusing on international standards of ethical and religious minorities’ rights. We were discussing what it means to be diverse, to be a multinational country. The purpose of this event was to foster dialogue between majority and minority ethnic and religious student representatives. Another activity I offered was with the support of my university and my colleagues. I offered study visits for MA students who are enrolled in my classes to meet local ethnic and religious community representatives. Unfortunately recently due to Coronavirus, we cannot manage to organize the same activities, but I do hope that we will do so next year. This project focused on multinational equality aims at the serious interest of the students who want to deepen their knowledge in the protection of rights of national religious minorities. The project also involves students in research using an interdisciplinary teaching methodology. We went to the region where most of the religious and ethnic minority groups are living, which gave us the best opportunity to meet with most of these groups.
Also to my thinking, this project included raising awareness and achieving many educational components. First, students recognize the need to be in the local communities. Secondly, they prepare a research essay related to the minority rights and finally, such events stimulate open discussion on minority-related subjects in larger public interests groups, even in the international law system. But still, the most important components are at the domestic level. Understanding the local domestic issues will be important for us to be able to face the kind of challenges we do face here in our country.
The mini-grant helps to promote more opportunities of creating space for dialogue among the youth because in a couple of years they will be decision makers for our country. And I think that they have to have a clear and deep understanding about democracy and the demographic situation about the groups who are living here in our country. They will need a clear understanding of what it means to be a multinational country. What does it mean to promote toleration? The award will help foster non discrimination enlightenment and discussion about what can be done now and in the future.
Rebecca Mays: We are grateful that you took so seriously your study and experience in the US and care about the education of these youth. We want to make a transition now to the larger scene of the globe and of America. In particular, we Americans are at a time when we need to learn more about some of these purposes in your courses. What aspect or example of international law pertaining to religious freedom do you think we Americans should learn more about?
Irine Kurdadze: You know, it's a very interesting question. And, of course I respect the best experts in the United States legislation, but I will try to share my opinion. Generally speaking, international human rights law provides an important framework for the rights of all people in all countries. At the same time international law provides minimum standards that should be fulfilled by the member states. In different countries, these minimum standards are different depending on the legislative system and on how best to implement international laws within domestic law.
Generally speaking, these domestic standards do not become enforceable unless and until they are implemented through the federal law. It's very important to know and understand how international law is working in the domestic space in each country. International treaties define rights very generally and international courts can provide monitoring. But the ability to enforce a decision directly in many countries, including the United States lies with the federal government within each country. One of the best ways to improve international human rights is to legislate and to track legal protection mechanisms for human rights with the support of judicial systems within each country.
I just want to add that the United States has been an active supporter of a strong system of human rights protection. Many of us as lawyers read on the State Department platform the special reports on particular countries they produce each year as a resource to our teaching and practice. Besides that, the United States was one of the leaders in creating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. And the United States is nowadays a member of many international treaties, despite it still not being fully committed to all of these human rights treaties, of course.
One of the mechanisms I love to present to my students is a Universal Periodic Review system known as UPR. The United States does participate in this mechanism. All interested organizations and institutions that are operating in the United States have the opportunity to apply, using the State Department's platform, in order to obtain information about particular situations in a given country and conduct. I presume the United States government also conducts consultation with civil society and academic representatives during the preparation of these reports. Also the Department of State provides an email inbox for persons in academic or civil society work or even the general public to send questions and voice their concerns. It is a great opportunity.
Rebecca Mays: Very helpful. Thank you.
David Krueger: In your work in global international law, what do you see as the most pressing concern in your region or beyond?
Irine Kurdadze: The intersectionality between freedom of religion or belief and religious minorities is rather complex. Based on an analysis of the many informational reports, there are very few recommendations that refer explicitly to the freedom of religion of minorities, unfortunately. The awarding of such recommendations are usually very general. To my thinking, such recommendations adopted by international bodies should be more clarified and more explicit.
Greater detail will encourage member states to fulfill more positive measures regarding the empowering of human rights for minorities. Not to dictate, but to give more clear guidance as to what should or could be done. It is the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the state party to fulfill any recommendations and could be seen as the source for the enjoyment of minority rights. Geopolitical factors also play a significant role, especially what we may mean by a “region.” If you read the reports related to countries like Georgia, Azerbaijan or Romania, you will find a lot of similarities and differences may be more related to the fact that these countries gained independence in the beginning of 20th century. Religion became defined as a social institution within a secular state with civic duties. The main religion institutions remained an important part of everyday lives and in some cases were more influential bodies than new governments. Traditional authorities could easily cross newly drawn boundaries with an older sense of region.
All these reports are focusing on the similarities that exist related mostly to minor issues. Reports could also focus on differences that may be more important. First of all, we can underline the challenge that is related to the registration procedures of religious organizations in a given country. Second, issues related to traditional and non traditional religious organizations or groups can be confusing. And finally, to study educational systems and how different countries include or not the history of certain religious minorities is important.
To sum up, all countries usually meet general measures, but more specific review of domestic issues needs to be taken in order to protect better religious minorities and to secure more of an equal environment for all groups of a particular society.
Rebecca Mays: These last three examples you've chosen are very interesting. Can you give us more detail about how a particular mechanism of international law would operate in one of those three examples?
Irine Kurdadze: The international mechanisms are sophisticated, trying to help states to develop democratic institutions inside the country and to have as much as possible domestic mechanisms that help to establish equal environments for all groups among religious communities. When we speak about the challenges that are related to registration of the religious organizations, we adopted here in Georgia special laws that allow religious groups to be registered by the law and thus deserving of protection. But again, the definition of what constitutes a religious group is open to interpretation. So it means that the legislation itself has some gaps that should be improved. This issue is continuously discussed by international bodies. And some domestic policies do not conform to international recommendations.
Rebecca Mays: That's a great example. Thank you very much.
David Krueger: Could you say a little bit more about the difficulty in defining what's a tradition, or what's a religious tradition? Does international law give any guidance for nations to make those kinds of decisions?
Irine Kurdadze: International law is not a system to replace domestic legislation. This is very important to understand. International law, for example, does not define what are minorities or what constitutes a religious tradition. International law allows each country to describe who are minorities in their own societies. In addition, international law does not use any clear definition of traditional or non-traditional religious groups. There are differences country by country. For example, in some countries traditional religious groups are those groups who are leaving the country to escape violence. In another case, by traditional religious group, we mean religious groups who are living in particular countries for centuries. Any newcomer by a migration process may not be seen as traditional in that situation though the immigrant may see his or her group as traditional in the former country.
Rebecca Mays: We are coming to the closing of our time. Can you reflect a bit on a hope you have for this cause of majority and minority groups working respectfully together?
Irine Kurdadze: You know, based on my professional and personal experience and my experience with the SUSI Scholar program, I would say the hope, very honestly, is to have as much as possible, space for dialogue. It's really, really, really, very important because it gives us opportunity, even if we do not agree, to know each other and to discuss what are some of the ways we can solve the challenges that exist in collaboration with one another. Then we have to be supportive to recommend to governments what should be done after our discussion. Also, we have to be active ourselves in order to give more opportunities, more possibilities to each group of society. And it is helpful to have as clear an understanding as possible what is the edifice that we are trying to build and how we can build it.
Rebecca Mays: Thank you, Irine. You have given us good steps to begin building the edifice. Thank you very, very much.
Irine Kurdadze: Thank you.
David Krueger: You’ve been listening to a conversation with Dr. Irine Kurdadze from Tblisi State University in Georgia. The Dialogue Institute works to foster relationships with the hundreds of our Study of the U.S. Institutes alumni around the world.
Members of the the 2017 cohort of SUSI scholars.
We invite you to partner with us by making a financial contribution so that we can expand our dialogue and education programming in the U.S. and around the world. In 2020, all donations will be matched dollar for dollar by a generous contribution from the Dialogue Institute founder and president, Professor Len Swidler.
Thank you for listening and be sure to follow us on social media and visit our website at dialogueinstitute.org. Click on the link for our Diablogue to read articles and listen to interviews featuring our friends from around the world.
