SUSI Podcast Episode #2: Arif Abdullah on Religious Pluralism

Does a commitment to religious pluralism require that religious people give up their central truth claims? In this interview, Dr. Arif Abdullah from New Bulgarian University discusses Islamic concepts of pluralism and articulates a vision of personal religious commitment that respects the beliefs and practices of others.

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Transcript

Arif Abdullah

Welcome to the second episode of a special podcast series from the Dialogue Institute/Journal of Ecumenical Studies based at Temple University. This is a series of interviews featuring participants in our Study of the U.S. Institutes, or SUSI, Program on Religious Pluralism and Freedom. This is a program we carried out between 2017 and 2019 in partnership with the U.S. Department of State Education and Cultural Affairs Division. My name is Dr. David Krueger, the executive director, and I am joined by my colleague Andi Laudisio. 

This interview features Professor Arif Abdullah from Bulgaria. Dr. Abdullah is a specialist in Arabic and Islamic studies and graduated from the University of Jordan, and received his PhD from the University of Aberdeen, in the UK. He is currently the director of the Research Center at the Higher Islamic Institute in Sofia, Bulgaria and lecturer at New Bulgarian University, Sofia. His academic interests lie in classical and modern approaches to Qur’anic exegesis, philosophy of Quranic hermeneutics, the history of the Qur’an, philosophy of Islamic law, and religious pluralism.

He is the author of the book The Quran and Normative Religious Pluralism published by  the International Institute of Islamic Thought. In this interview, Dr. Abdullah will discuss his book and how his thoughts have further developed since his book was published in 2014. Without further delay, we turn to our guest interview.

[Music Interlude]

Interview Transcript

David Krueger: Arif, you spend some time in your book defining what you mean by this concept of religious pluralism. Could you give an explanation about what you mean by the term and how it relates to societies in general?

Arif Abdullah: I find this notion of religious pluralism to be very loosely defined and it has many meanings used interchangeably in different contexts. I personally found more than 12 meanings and I saw it as my job to research them and to find the proper meaning which could be  accommodated to the Islamic context. Some scholars use the concept of toleration, just to tolerate other people, as synonymous to the concept of religious pluralism. But when you go deeply into what they mean by toleration, they mean simply the absence of religious persecution and nothing more than that, and this is problematic. What I support as the idea for religious pluralism is mutual understanding and active engagement across the line of differences and this common ground as well and in that way, religious pluralism is very fruitful for the society, and it gives us opportunity to engage in mutual purposes to improve our life to save our planet, and many different ways of implementing the idea of religious pluralism. Otherwise, using religious pluralism as a way of syncretism, I found it problematic as well because religiously committed people fear this kind of melding of religious identities. We can say religious pluralism can be understood in two ways or spheres: a sphere of pure theological level of religious pluralism and the sphere of moral, ethical religious pluralism. Theological pluralism is very controversial, because we're talking about the religious truth and religious salvation, who is going to be saved after we die. We know historically that we have differing religious polemics claims that only one group can be saved, only one religious group is holding the religious truth. That's why I think religious pluralism placed on this pure theological level is somewhat problematic. Religious pluralism as a way of behavior and moral and ethical applications in society is much more easy to be tackled in this context.

Andi Laudisio: Arif, you mentioned in your book the difference between religious pluralism and tolerance and in your book, The Qur’an and Normative Religious Pluralism: a Thematic Study, I noticed a sense of urgency for people to understand the link between religious pluralism and Islam and to understand Islam as inherently religiously pluralistic by nature. Could you elaborate on that?

Arif Abdullah: Yeah. It comes from my personal experience in my personal life and studies as well because I spent eight years studying in Jordan and six years studying in the UK. It was very challenging for me to accommodate these very different places and contexts. When I was in Jordan 20 years ago and attending Friday sermons, I heard imams cursing people of other religions and introducing very difficult religious discourse inside the mosques and probably it was because of the context itself. We know how Israel, Palestine, all these problems they're generated in Jordan as well, and even the political way of Islam is the main approach in Jordan. I was affected by all these ideas. Then, when I went to the UK, it was completely different.  There was a multicultural context. They were talking about how to balance different cultures and how to just tolerate and to improve the life of all different religious traditions. It gave me a way of thinking about all these religious pluralism and I started to lecture first and then this book came out of all these practices. And yes, I think it's very urgent for people because I would claim here and state that the mainstream Sunni tradition is still far away from these pluralistic attempts, it's still very exclusive. Yeah, to see that only one tradition is the truth. And it's a big challenge for the main body to accept these ideas.

Andi Laudisio: Okay, so I just have a follow up question to that then, Arif.  How does understanding Islam as pluralistic impact the way everybody should understand Islam; what should we be understanding is different?

Arif Abdullah: Yeah, that’s a very important question because I think when trying to introduce a pluralistic view of Islam, we are actually trying to revive the spiritual wealth and the spiritual practice of Islam, and to see this spiritual world reflected in the behavior and the moral and ethical attitudes of Muslims in society. Unfortunately, Islam has been highly politicized throughout history and that has affected the spiritual dimension of religion. Now, when we are trying to improve or to introduce this pluralistic view, we are actually trying to revive the spiritual consciousness, to make Muslims aware of the spiritual dimension of religion and not so much of its political dimension, not to mention military relations, as we see in the Islamic world. This is crucially important in our time. 

Andi Laudisio: So your answer actually leads me into another question. Where you mentioned in your book that the Prophet Muhammad and the Qur’an never force anyone to become Muslim and that's not the intention of Islam. So how does that claim reconcile with the historical reality of the spread of Islam?

Arif Abdullah: Huh. Hmm. Well, I'm trying in my recent research to clearly differentiate between religion and theology. I think religion relates to all that we mentioned before, spiritual wealth and this spiritual pleasure of relating to God and to the universe. But in history, theology has been used as a political tool for gaining power and for territorial expansion. And we can say that the Byzantine context couldn't escape from Muslim’s way of thinking and this mixture between politics and theology was exactly taken from that context and implemented later on in the Islamic context. And this is very important to understand the pure spiritual and moral profile of the prophet, how it has been polluted later on by all these political attempts for expansion for power for control and that's why you're right we can read in many historical books that Muslims use power and the spiritual dimension of religion. Just they faded they deteriorated and we can see them in many practices. And I'm not sure how this statement will be understood. There's two to differentiate between the religion and theology, but I can clearly see in my research that theology has been used for political purposes and as a political tool; just terrestrial and psychological context. They're always related but in theology in certain historical periods, it's been used for gaining terrestrial power and this notion of terrestrial paradise God's kingdom on earth, and all these creative tension and and political struggle, which falls on the expenses, the spiritual practices.

David Krueger: There's been a common perception of Islam among people in Europe and, especially, even in the United States that that Islam is essentially not a pluralistic religion. Being that you spent some time in the United States learning about, and you’ve also lived in the UK as well, you've lived in all different parts of the world. Can you speculate on or just to share a little bit about for our listeners why do you think that folks in Europe in the US have had this kind of stereotype that Islam is not a pluralistic religion?

Arif Abdullah: Well, I think, first of all, we can find practices of Muslims which support such statements; behavior, religious discourse, and statements inside mosques and in Islamic education. It's easy to find many examples which can support this point of view.

There are examples in literature and books, which describe and portray Islam, in many cases, as exclusive, violent, and non-pluralistic. And even in Western scholarship on Islam, it started out very polemicly and very, how do you say, political, because it was related to the process of colonization. And the so-called Orientalists, not all of them, but many of them, make great efforts to picture Islam to Westerners as an inhumane and violent religion, and even the Prophet Mohammed has been portrayed in pictures as the Antichrist and so on. But I think in our time, it has started to change and now the departments of Islamic and Arabic studies in the West are taking different approaches. That's our hope for the future.

Andi Laudisio: How do you think a Muslim versus a non Muslim would understand your book and then could you speak a little bit more about the intended audience of your book as well.

Arif Abdullah: Certainly, my book was written for Muslims, and in particular for those groups adopting the exclusive religious pluralism. I would say it's a large group which [is] still reluctant to adopt the pluralistic view and that was my critical approach to them. No Muslims, when I presented my book at Five years ago at University of SOFIA in Bulgaria, one the most famous professor of Arabic and Islamic studies in Bulgaria, he said the work you did would seem apologetic, if not for the firm argumentation supporting all of your claims. And, I believe, and I agree with him, probably for non Muslims it would seem like apologetic work. But it wasn't addressed to that particular group of non Muslims. 

David Krueger: Arif  you've already talked a little bit about the the challenge of of of leading this kind of theological movement in Sunni Islam to help people embrace this notion of religious pluralism. Could you talk a little bit more about what obstacles stand in the way, what obstacles do you face as a scholar looking to advance this notion of religious pluralism among Muslims what obstacles do you see? And can you give some guidance or hope for overcoming some of those obstacles to help fellow Muslims see pluralism rooted in the traditions

Arif Abdullah: Yeah, in societies like Bulgaria, where the tradition is very powerful, it's much, much more difficult to introduce a pluralistic approach in religion. Because people, first of all,  feel their identity is threatened, their identity is in danger. They think that you're trying to create one universal religion and just disregard all these particular cultural features of religion. And in more educated people, it seems easier because they try to understand this, but the majority of people, and even the religious institutions which regulate Muslim life, they're very traditional people. They don't engage in research and writing. They are only attached to these practices of ritual and prayer, and that's very difficult to explain to them because of the pluralistic abroad religious pluralism, sorry. It's a philosophical theme. It's a philosophical topic. It's difficult to be understood by people. And that's really a big challenge. I would say this kind of idea of religious pluralism, this is a very advanced level in our spiritual journey. And probably you can say it [is the] same in your tradition because religious pluralism in Bulgaria is not a problem of Muslims only, at all. I would say it's a much bigger problem for Eastern Orthodox Christian in Bulgaria. That's why I think the way to make it easier to be accepted is the education and more intelligent circles of influential people in our tradition. Yeah, but certainly it is the issue of identity. 

David Krueger: So it sounds like there's probably increasingly a need for folks in the academy like yourself to be connected to local communities and to kind of facilitate that kind of conversation. 

Arif Abdullah: Exactly, religious pluralism taken on academic level and political level, a level on a social level with different levels of religious pluralism. 

Andi Laudisio: Before we move on to the SUSI part of the interview. I just want to kind of wrap up this part of the interview. Because Arif I'm really glad and grateful for this opportunity to talk to you about your book because you've answered so many of the important questions I had while reading it and I'm grateful that you mentioned that this is for a Muslim audience and others would think it has an apologetic tone and that's absolutely what I thought reading it, I talked about this with Dave yesterday and that urgency, to me, is what came across, I said almost apologetic. So it's really interesting that that's what was intended here. But I'm also getting the sense that this book is written because there's an understanding, not just with Muslims, but very devout people that being pluralistic and tolerant is abandoning your faith and losing yourself but your book shows instead that the Qur’an and the Prophet prove that this concept of religious pluralism is to be celebrated and encouraged and that's really the urgency in your book is that right? 

Arif Abdullah: Yeah. Yes.

David Krueger: That's great, summation Andi, thank you for that. A couple of summers ago we spent a lot of time together. We traveled to New York and Washington and we visited mosques and temples and synagogues all around Philadelphia and different parts of the country. It was a six week intensive experience with an interreligious group, very diverse, visiting diverse sites. Arif, could you talk a little bit about the impact that that experience had on you? Maybe both personally and even on your research and your scholarship

Arif Abdullah: Yes. I would admit it was really a great time I spent with you in America. It was my first time visiting the United States and even related to my field of study. It was just more than perfect and amazing and unforgettable moments we had with you. For me, the most valuable moment was this connection between all my previous studies on theoretical level and now to see all this in practice in the United States, all these diverse contexts with many different religions and how they interact together. And even how the U.S. constitution gave space for freedom and tolerated all these different views in order to balance between common grounds and these particular religious differences. It was very, very valuable for me because I was thinking about all these and writing and when you see it in front of you and just could feel it in yourself, It's very different I would say. And all these books I went through, written by Professor Swidler and his statements, It was unforgettable expressions like what he said is, “all human knowledge is interpreted knowledge.” It's a very core idea in a pluralistic view and, “nobody knows everything about anything.” Yes, and more than that, we felt like we're sharing the joy of establishing our friendship, on the basis of common understanding and common goals to make humanity live in peace and harmony and it was amazing. We could feel it in that period, you know, people of different faiths different regions and  we became like brothers and thinking about common targets in our society on a global level, and that's why many times we broke into tears when we were discussing and visiting a Grand Canyon and all these places. And it's very much related to our pluralistic attempts.

Andi Laudisio: Um, I guess it's a question about your book, but it's also a question about your experiences. So you said this book was written five years ago and you have had many experiences between then and now, one of them being this SUSI journey that you just described so passionately and when you were here in the US, you've mentioned that you would change some things in your book that you've written five years ago. Could you elaborate on what changes, you would make and what led you to those changes?

Arif Abdullah: Yeah, okay. It's a very important question to me and I [am] still thinking about changes. I'm not sure I would say everything is clear now. But I am I'm struggling to make

new points. One of these points is how to because, by that time, I was very skeptical about theological pluralism. At that time I believed that the part of pure theological pluralism shouldn't be touched because this is dangerous and would create many problems instead of providing solutions. But now after reading many books of metaphysics and books of philosophy, I think there is a good ground and good line of argumentation in the Qur’an to support this kind of theological pluralism. Meaning that we can establish a theology of differences, theology of giving this feeling to all people that they hold religious truth and they would be saved after this life and this is, in other words, to say how we can see many different traditions related to one creator. And we're trying to explain to our Muslims now, when I'm lecturing, that there is one phenomena, one creator, but we are using different approaches to it and I found many Quranic verses supporting this idea and probably in two or three years time, I was just write as a follow up a new chapter on theological pluralism, because my book five years ago was on this model of behavior and ethics towards others that I said clearly that we cannot discuss the issue of religious salvation and the religious truth and that was this remaining of Jordanian context. 

Andi Laudisio: I guess good scholarship is never done though, right? There's always more you learn and revise.

Arif Abdullah: Yeah.

David Krueger: Arif, I really appreciate you taking us along on that journey to experience that kind of growing edge that you know you're exploring some new territory and some new directions. And you know what I wrote in my book, five years ago, I certainly have revised and changed my views as well. But we don't know what we think, right? Until we actually write it down and then we engage in that conversation and see how other people are engaging with their ideas.

Arif Abdullah: Yeah, exactly.

David Krueger: You know, by putting things out there in the world to be considered. So thank you for taking us on that journey. Thank you for writing this book and I wanted to just to pull together kind of a concluding question and to just to talk a little bit about yourself personally and maybe have you give some advice to others who are on this journey to want to struggle for a more tolerant society, more pluralistic society, more humane and compassionate societies. So Arif, you've been a part of this work for a long time, you've been thinking about religious pluralism for a long time. What advice would you give to others doing this kind of work or what advice would you give to them to help people be both self sustaining and effective in the work that they do? 

Arif Abdullah: Well, I think that we, as human beings, are still finite and limited in our understanding of the world, in our understanding of ourselves, our language, our culture. Always take place within our personal and social context. We are formed in our family practices, political, and social practices, our religious narratives and stories. And just to overcome this limitation and finitude, I think we need to understand the differences, in other words, to grow we need to open ourselves. If we want to grow really and we need to understand. Understanding, in my opinion, is in itself a pluralistic and dialogic process. It means that there's no way to grow, to become more and more intelligent and more than one spiritual, you just need to take this pluralistic way and to understand the existence of this dialogic and pluralistic base. Otherwise, I don't what to say but, we're going to just to shrink to narrow our knowledge and our understanding and it will reflect in a very negative way in our mutual coexistence with our societies. Even now we're trying to relate these pluralistic findings and views on a larger level, for example in these UN SDGs (United Nations Sustainable Development Goals), which are very important for our global life. We're trying to introduce these pluralistic views and it means there is no escape in future for all societies, but through these pluralistic understanding and conception.

David Krueger: Well said. We thank you Professor Arif Abdullah for joining us in this conversation. We wish you all the best for your work and that you stay safe and happy. All the best to your family and your community. Thank you.

Arif Abdullah: Thank you guys, we, we so appreciate your work and you gave us a big hope in our studies in our life in general. And this is not only my opinion, it's all of my colleagues, they share this point of view and will still be thankful to you for the rest of our lives. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, thank you so much guys. 

SUSI Podcast Episode #1: Irine Kurdadze

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Welcome to a special podcast series from the Dialogue Institute/Journal of Ecumenical Studies. The Journal of Ecumenical Studies or (J.E.S.) was founded by Temple University professors Arlene and Leonard Swidler in 1964 as the first peer-reviewed academic journal in the field of ecumenical and interreligious dialogue. In 1978, Professor Swidler hosted the first of a series of conferences which brought together leading scholars from each of the Abrahamic faiths in regions where interreligious understanding was crucial to promoting stability and peace. In 2008, these and other efforts gave birth to the Dialogue Institute, which applies the cutting-edge research of the journal to grassroots efforts to facilitate dialogue and understanding across religious differences.  

The DI-JES is based at Temple University in Philadelphia. This series of interviews features participants from our Study of the U.S. Institutes, or SUSI, Program on Religious Pluralism and Freedom, which was funded by the U.S. Department of State. From 2017 to 2019, the Dialogue Institute hosted three cohorts of scholars from dozens of countries and you’ll get to meet several of them in this podcast series.   

Introducing Dr. Irine Kurdadze

This first interview features Professor Dr. Irine Kurdadze, who is the director of the International Law Institute at Tblisi State University in the country of Georgia, a country at the crossroads of Asia and eastern Europe. She is a professor of International Law whose research and teaching focuses on academic and specific practical student-oriented activities. In addition, she has served as a Member of the Georgian Parliament and was a Deputy Chair for the Foreign Relations Committee, joining a member of the Parliamentary Delegation to the Council of Europe. Her passion as well as her intellectual integrity and acumen correlate international law with domestic law according to rigorous global standards. 

My name is Dave Krueger and I’m the executive director for the Dialogue Institute. For this episode, I’m joined by Rebecca Mays, our director of education. Rebecca and I had the privilege of meeting Dr. Kurdadze in the summer of 2017. In this interview, Irine discusses how the SUSI Scholar program affected her and served as a catalyst for a new university course that teaches international standards of ethics and religious minority rights. She sees the course as vital to the health of diverse societies. 

Rebecca and I spoke with Professor Kurdadze while she was in her office in Tiblisi, and in the background, you will hear the lively street sounds of her city. Without further delay, we turn to our conversation with Irine Kurdadze.

Interview Transcript

Rebecca Mays: As someone who can blend one's own personal character with one's own professional responsibilities, I’m curious if there were one or two formative experiences in your life that would, one, account for your ability to blend integrity and professionalism and, two, explain why you chose this work.

Georgia is located at the crossroads of Eastern Europe and Asia.

Irine Kurdadze: Thank you, first of all, for giving me this opportunity to join this wonderful project. You know, why I started to work on minority issues is related to the experience I gained as both an international lawyer and as a person involved in the public sector. I wanted to combine my theoretical knowledge of international public law and the practical challenges faced within the 17 public offices in the Ministry of Education. In the Ministry of Education, one of my job responsibilities was to support the integration of ethnic, religious, and linguistic minorities into Georgian society. And as you know, Georgia’s multinational, multi-religious states mean that ethnic and religious groups are living in the common space of this small country. One challenge that I saw was that the settlement of minority issues had been challenged by the giant system of the state institutions. In addition, the dominant population lacked knowledge of minority issues. To my thinking, one solution to the problem was to provide as much possible information about all the groups living here in our country. By increasing the level of knowledge and thus the level of tolerance, Georgia’s Parliament was able to adopt a couple of national strategies to help the civic integration of religious and ethnic minorities. These strategies were intended to raise awareness about the rights of minorities with an aim to eliminate all forms of discrimination and to promote the engagement of minorities in the social life of our country.  I truly believe this goal can be reached and reaching it is why I entered this work. Through increased knowledge of the relevant fields as well as analyzing international standards and domestic jurisprudence, I can both  elaborate the syllabi I teach  and empower professionals in public service. I want to help students and professionals with the knowledge that will help them to cope with existing challenges that we unfortunately still have.

Rebecca Mays: Thank you, Irine. Your university and country should be glad you made these choices.

David Krueger: We had the privilege of spending the summer with you in 2017 when you were a participant in the SUSI scholar program here in Philadelphia. Could you share a little bit about how that summer experience impacted you? 

Irine Kurdadze: First, thanks to the embassy of the United States here in Georgia and  to the State Department, I was privileged to participate in the SUSI exchange program in 2017. This was not my first experience of traveling to the United States being a public servant. I have been  several times and I have been privileged to participate in different high level meetings or study visits. These visits, undoubtedly, were an important and valuable experience for me on a personal level as well as on an institutional level. I always try to follow the current political or social processes in  the United States with great interest. As a consequence,  I had a feeling that I would understand well the important roots of the United States public life.

Despite such diverse experiences of other trips to the U.S., participating in the SUSI program gave me a different perspective on both the individual and academic social levels. I knew the program would be useful for my current career development, but, in reality, the program content and design exceeded all my expectations.

It is not surprising given that the bulk of the program itself is very multi-disciplinary and takes place in a very historical, multicultural city of Philadelphia. It's a great example of how many different cultures and religious communities as well as immigrant newcomers could coexist in one place, united by the American spirit of seeking equal opportunities. To my thinking, the goodness of this program represents a unique opportunity to experience a special type of knowledge acquisition that pushes beyond the capabilities represented in scientific papers. The SUSI program was designed in a way that allowed us to create our own impressions and generate our own conclusions about the laws and policies of the United States regarding religious and cultural diversity.

Second, meeting with local religious communities made an incredible impression on me. No matter which group we met, the people were ready, not only to present the best experience possible, but were also happy to meet us as representatives of foreign countries, often a country about which in some cases, they did not have much information. They were ready to share experiences about challenges which they sometimes face and discuss their own vision of solutions.

Third, no less valuable for me was the interaction with the SUSI Scholar program participants themselves. My fellow cohort members taught me so much about what is going on in other countries. I was able to learn so much from people with different visions and attitudes.

Also I would like to focus on the role of the host institution and its capacity. I want to thank the Dialogue Institute and its whole staff. All of you were supportive, ready to provide any assistance to the needs of the participants. I am really happy to say that I gained friends and colleagues from the Dialogue Institute in addition to the program experience. In fact, they and the program inspired me to handle different kinds of activities here in my country at my university.

David Krueger: Irine, could you share some about the work you have been doing at your university in Tbilisi and also what you will be doing with the mini grant you recently received from the State Department? 

Irine Kurdadze: For one week in the spring of 2018, I offered to my students a course focusing on international standards of ethical and religious minorities’ rights. We were discussing what it means to be diverse, to be a multinational country.  The purpose of this event was to foster dialogue between majority and minority ethnic and religious student representatives. Another activity I offered was with the support of my university and my colleagues. I offered study visits for MA students who are enrolled in my classes to meet local ethnic and religious community representatives.  Unfortunately recently due to Coronavirus, we cannot manage to organize the same activities, but I do hope that we will do so next year. This project focused on multinational equality aims at the serious interest of the students who want to deepen their knowledge in the protection of rights of national religious minorities. The project also involves students in research using an interdisciplinary teaching methodology. We went to the region where most of the religious and ethnic minority groups are living, which gave us the best opportunity to meet with most of these groups. 

Also to my thinking, this project included raising awareness and achieving many educational components. First, students recognize the need to be in the local communities. Secondly, they prepare a research essay related to the minority rights and finally, such events stimulate open discussion on minority-related subjects in larger public interests groups, even in the international law system. But still, the most important components are at the domestic level.  Understanding the local domestic issues will be important for us to be able to face the kind of challenges we do face here in our country.

The mini-grant helps to promote more opportunities of creating space for dialogue among the youth because in a couple of years they will be decision makers for our country. And I think that they have to have a clear and deep understanding about democracy and the demographic situation about the groups who are living here in our country. They will need a clear understanding of what it means to be a multinational country. What does it mean to promote toleration? The award will help foster non discrimination enlightenment and discussion about what can be done now and in the future.

Rebecca Mays: We are grateful that you took so seriously your study and experience in the US and care about the education of these youth. We want to make a transition now to the larger scene of the globe and of America. In particular, we Americans are at a time when we need to learn more about some of these purposes in your courses. What aspect or example of international law pertaining to religious freedom do you think we Americans should learn more about? 

Irine Kurdadze: You know, it's a very interesting question. And, of course I respect the best experts in the United States legislation, but I will try to share my opinion. Generally speaking, international human rights law provides an important framework for the rights of all people in all countries. At the same time international law provides minimum standards that should be fulfilled by the member states. In different countries, these minimum standards are different depending on the legislative system and on how best to implement international laws within domestic law.

Generally speaking, these domestic standards do not become enforceable unless and until they are implemented through the federal law. It's very important to know and understand how international law is working in the domestic space in each country. International treaties define rights very generally and international courts can provide monitoring. But the ability to enforce a decision directly in many countries, including the United States lies with the federal government within each country.  One of the best ways to improve international human rights is to legislate and to track legal protection mechanisms for human rights with the support of judicial systems  within each country. 

I just want to add that the United States has been an active supporter of a strong system of human rights protection. Many of us as lawyers read on the State Department platform the special reports on particular countries they produce each year as a resource to our teaching and practice. Besides that, the United States was one of the leaders in creating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. And the United States is nowadays a member of many international treaties, despite it still not being fully committed to all of these human rights treaties, of course. 

One of the mechanisms I love to present to my students is a Universal Periodic Review system known as UPR. The United States does participate in this mechanism. All interested organizations and institutions that are operating in the United States have the opportunity to apply, using the State Department's platform, in order to obtain information about particular situations in a given country and conduct. I presume the United States government also conducts consultation with civil society and academic representatives during the preparation of these reports. Also the Department of State provides an email inbox for persons in academic or civil society work or even the general public to send questions and voice their concerns. It is a great opportunity. 

Rebecca Mays: Very helpful. Thank you.

David Krueger: In your work in global international law, what do you see as the most pressing concern in your region or beyond? 

Irine Kurdadze: The intersectionality between freedom of religion or belief and religious minorities is rather complex. Based on an analysis of the many informational reports,  there are very few recommendations that refer explicitly to the freedom of religion of minorities, unfortunately. The awarding of such recommendations are usually very general. To my thinking, such recommendations adopted by international bodies should be more clarified and more explicit. 

Greater detail will encourage member states to fulfill more positive measures regarding the empowering of human rights for minorities. Not to dictate, but to give more clear guidance as to what should or could be done. It is the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the state party to fulfill any recommendations and could be seen as the source for the enjoyment of minority rights. Geopolitical factors also play a significant role, especially what we may mean by a “region.” If you read the reports related to countries like Georgia, Azerbaijan or Romania, you will find a lot of similarities and differences may be more related to the fact that these countries gained independence in the beginning of 20th century. Religion became defined as a social institution within a secular state with civic duties. The main religion institutions remained an important part of everyday lives and in some cases were more influential bodies than new governments. Traditional authorities could easily cross newly drawn boundaries with an older sense of region.   

All these reports are focusing on the similarities that exist related mostly to minor issues. Reports could also focus on differences that may be more important. First of all, we can underline the challenge that is related to the registration procedures of religious organizations in a given country.  Second, issues related to traditional and non traditional religious organizations or groups can be confusing. And finally, to study educational systems and how different countries include or not the history of certain religious minorities is important.

To sum up, all countries usually meet general measures, but more specific review of domestic issues needs to be taken in order to protect better religious minorities and to secure more of an equal environment for all groups of a particular society.

Rebecca Mays: These last three examples you've chosen are very interesting. Can you give us more detail about how a particular mechanism of international law would operate in one of those three examples?

Irine Kurdadze: The international mechanisms are sophisticated, trying to help states to develop democratic institutions inside the country and to have as much as possible domestic mechanisms that help to establish equal environments for all groups among religious communities. When we speak about the challenges that are related to registration of the religious organizations, we adopted here in Georgia special laws that allow religious groups to be registered by the law and thus deserving of protection. But again, the definition of what constitutes a religious group is open to interpretation. So it means that the legislation itself has some gaps that should be improved. This issue is continuously discussed by international bodies. And some domestic policies do not conform to international recommendations. 

Rebecca Mays: That's a great example. Thank you very much. 

David Krueger: Could you say a little bit more about the difficulty in defining what's a tradition, or what's a religious tradition? Does international law give any guidance for nations to make those kinds of decisions?

Irine Kurdadze: International law is not a system to replace domestic legislation. This is very important to understand. International law, for example, does not define what are minorities or what constitutes a religious tradition. International law allows each country to describe who are minorities in their own societies. In addition, international law does not use any clear definition of traditional or non-traditional religious groups. There are differences country by country. For example, in some countries traditional religious groups are those groups who are leaving the country to escape violence. In another case, by traditional religious group, we mean religious groups who are living in particular countries for centuries.  Any newcomer by a migration process may not be seen as traditional in that situation though the immigrant may see his or her group as traditional in the former country.

Rebecca Mays: We are coming to the closing of our time.  Can you reflect a bit on a hope you have for this cause of majority and minority groups working respectfully together?

Irine Kurdadze: You know, based on my professional and personal experience and my experience with the SUSI Scholar program, I would say the hope, very honestly, is to have as much as possible, space for dialogue. It's really, really, really, very important because it gives us opportunity, even if we do not agree, to know each other and to discuss what are some of the ways we can solve the challenges that  exist in collaboration with one another. Then we have to be supportive to recommend to governments  what should be done after our discussion. Also, we have to be active ourselves in order to give more opportunities, more possibilities to each group of society. And it is helpful  to have as clear an understanding as possible what is the edifice that we are trying to build and how we can build it.

Rebecca Mays: Thank you, Irine.  You have given us good steps to begin building the edifice. Thank you very, very much.

Irine Kurdadze: Thank you. 

David Krueger: You’ve been listening to a conversation with Dr. Irine Kurdadze from Tblisi State University in Georgia. The Dialogue Institute works to foster relationships with the hundreds of our Study of the U.S. Institutes alumni around the world. 

Members of the the 2017 cohort of SUSI scholars.

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